Dennis Collins:
Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Connect and Convert, the sales accelerator podcast where small business owners come to learn insider secrets about how to increase their sales fast. I’m Dennis Collins. I’m joined by my partner. Thankfully, she keeps coming back. Hey, Leah.

Leah Bumphrey:
Can’t get rid of me, Dennis. Here I am. Hi, everybody.

Dennis Collins:
Don’t want to get rid of you.

Leah Bumphrey:
I’m glad.

Dennis Collins:
Excellent. Hey, we’ve got an interesting topic today that is sales-related and leadership-related, and it’s called substance or style. What sends the loudest message, substance or style? I think that’s been a debate since the beginning of time. You think of a speech you’ve heard, maybe a TED Talk or a political speech or something or a movie or something. How did you form your initial impression? What was the way you formed your initial impression? I think, Leah, you told me before we started about a story that’s related to this.

Maybe you could tell our audience about that.

Leah Bumphrey:
Oh, you know what? This one always makes me cringe a little, but it is about substance versus style. My first mat leave, so you’ve met Fletcher, he’s 27, I was in sales, I went off on mat leave and left my business with someone who had exceptional substance, exceptional style.

She knew what she was doing for my clients. When I came back from my mat leave, one of my clients didn’t want me back. They preferred her, and it’s like, what the heck? You want to leave them with someone who’s good, but not someone who’s better, who they’re going to pick somebody, you know, over you. But what it came down to was this particular client noticed her shoes. She had great shoes, of course. That’s all very good. My shoes weren’t that great. Let’s face it. I was on mat leave. I was wearing pretty comfortable shoes at that point in my life.

But he made the decision because her shoes reflected to him someone that was really on top of things, someone who had the style he was looking for. Now, it had nothing to do with her substance. She also had a great deal of knowledge and did a great job.

That’s how he made his determination, who he wanted to continue to work with him. That always struck because initially, that’s not fair. That’s not right. What do you mean you don’t want me back because of my shoes? But when you reflect upon it, we make decisions sometimes based on things that are not rational, sometimes based on just where we are at a place in time.

And that’s where this gentleman was. So I sometimes when I’m thinking about substance versus style, we always say, oh, you know, you always go for the substance times. Sometimes the style is what wins. That’s my dirty little shoe story.

Dennis Collins:
I’m sorry to hear that. That wasn’t fair, was it?

Leah Bumphrey:
Thank you, I agree.

Dennis Collins:
We’re going to search her down and have a chat with her about that. Unfortunately, what you just related happens often. It isn’t the actual substance. It’s not the detailed content. It’s not the facts and the figures and the science of what was being said. It was primarily the way it was being delivered or the style of the person that’s delivering it.

Today’s topic, presentation style can often override substance and content. It may not be fair, but it’s real. Let me cite some examples. Do you guys see the Bachelor Bachelorette series up in Canada? Do you know what that is? The TV series?

Leah Bumphrey:
All right. I don’t, but I have it under good authority that it does play.

Dennis Collins:
I am sorry to hear that. The queen watches this like it’s a religion.  She has not missed an episode. So what’s the style? It’s very dramatic. She actually sucked me into watching it once or twice. I cannot watch it for long. It’s very dramatic, very glamorous settings. You know, they fly to these wonderful places. And the whole concept is that the bachelor or bachelorette is looking for love, right? They’re looking to find their fiancé.

Leah Bumphrey:
Cue the violins. Yes.

Dennis Collins:
And it’s all high emotion. But when you get down to it, Leah, it’s all just hype. There’s no genuine romantic connections. If you go back, I think they’ve had 20 some seasons. I think there may be two or three people or couples that are still a couple.

It’s all contrived. In fact, they’ve done a news outlet, did an article about it. They interviewed contestants, former contestants, and they confirmed that what you see on TV has nothing to do with what’s really going on. They pick out your character in the initial phase of the show, and you become that character. The only thing then they show on the screen is stuff that supports that character. So it’s all contrived. It’s supposed to be to develop romantic connection, but it doesn’t. These shows are extremely popular. It’s been going on for years. They have strong ratings, a loyal fan base, including the queen, my wife, demonstrating how engaging style can be to overshadow substance.

It’s all style. So does that intrigue you to go watch that series?

Leah Bumphrey:
Honestly, it just doesn’t. I actually remember reading that contestants have to sign something that acknowledges that we are going to pull whatever we want to turn you into the character we need you to be. And they have to sign and acquiesce to that. And I have no interest.

Dennis Collins:
And to my knowledge, they don’t even get paid for this. I mean, they have to leave their job, whatever work they do, for a period of time. I think it’s two months. And they get no pay for this. I don’t get it. But there is a prime example to me of style over substance.

Now, let me share another. Bad Boys and Transformers. I mean, I don’t know how they played in Canada. These were big hits.

Leah Bumphrey:
Oh, Transformers. That’s ultimate fun. I bought more of those Transformer toys from my younger brothers back 30 years ago than you can imagine. And then they made movies out of them.

Dennis Collins:
Exactly. And the guy who did the Bad Boys series, they had Bad Boys 1, Bad Boys 2. Now I think there’s a Bad Boys 3. The guy’s name is Michael Bay. I happen to know Michael Bay. I spent many days and weeks on the set when they were filming Bad Boys 2 in Miami many years ago. So I got to know him and his technique.

His films are known for they’re very expensive to produce because he has never-ending special effects. He has blow-ups, crashes, all types of catastrophes. It’s spectacular. He’s got a formula that every 20 seconds something has to blow up. And he does do that and does it well. But what about the plots? If you look at the Bad Boys 2, the plots are like paper thin.

There’s no character development. There’s no dialogue. It’s junk. It’s not what a movie critic would say, wow, that’s a great movie. The outcome is they, Michael Bay even told me, he says, why don’t the critics give us a break? We sell these movies. We make billions of dollars. We get acclimation from the audience, but we never get acclimation from the critics because they’re not great productions.

They are style over substance. They’re commercially successful because of their visual appeal, the action-packed sequences. So there to me is another example, style over substance. And sorry, Michael, you know how I feel. So I haven’t said anything today that I haven’t told him.

Leah Bumphrey:
But you’re getting what you pay for with those, right? I mean, that’s what he’s, you’re buying cotton candy. That’s what it is. It’s not a steak.

Dennis Collins:
It’s what it is.

Leah Bumphrey:
You’re buying style over substance.

Dennis Collins:
And you pretty much know that going in. So that’s fine. Now let me get a little political here. Just a little political. 1960, first ever televised presidential debate. The candidates were John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon. Nixon was the pro. Remember, he had been in government a long time. He had strong, substantive points. He was experienced, but guess what? He appeared tired, unwell, refused makeup. And that resulted in a pale, unshaven and sweaty appearance.

Kennedy, on the other hand, is a young, appeared very calm, sounded calm, confident, young, charismatic, good-looking guy. Guess what? Here’s the outcome. TV viewers, people who watched it on TV, said Kennedy won the debate due to his confident style, the way he looked, the way he presented himself. If you listened on radio, yes, back in those days, some people did not watch it on TV. They listened on radio. The radio listeners thought Nixon had the better arguments and won the debate.

Once again, demonstrating how the style of Kennedy, which became legendary, of course, after he won the presidency, his style overrode Nixon’s experience and substantive points for the TV audience. Isn’t that incredible? And, of course, Kennedy went on to win election and, of course, unfortunately met a fate a few years later. That’s another episode. But style over substance.

How about our leaders? The speeches they make, the presentations they make. Martin Luther King Jr. is certainly one of the most charismatic leaders of our time. He certainly was a religious leader, but he’s remembered not only for his words, but for the feelings, the emotions, the ability to inspire.

Steve Jobs was the same way in a commercial sense, not in the religious sense. They’re both engaging speakers. They use stories. They use humor, body language to create an emotional connection with their audience. Their connection made the message more memorable. Again, style. Customer service and sales. How about in customer service? What’s most important? Is it what actually happens or how a customer feels? What’s your experience, Leah?

Leah Bumphrey:
Well, one follows the other. In customer service, if I’m talking to someone who’s helping me, think about just even when you’re shopping… Let’s say I’m buying shoes. If I am talking to someone who makes me feel comfortable about what it is that they’re presenting and the why; and that it’s going to make me feel good, that this is, oh, this will really suit you.

You’re going on a journey with them. They’re taking you down that street where you’re there and you’re more apt to spend money. You’re spending time with them. I have a hard time buying shoes. I always have.

Dennis Collins:
It sounds like it from the story you said before.

Leah Bumphrey:
Oh, for sure. Well, my brother-in-law at the time, he was my future brother-in-law, but he said that my feet were hoofs because I have big feet. So when I am buying shoes with someone who can have that connection with me about doing this, man, I’ll spend a lot of money.

Dennis Collins:
You know, we have this discussion and the reason we brought it up today is because it does apply to sales. Is it possible for a salesperson with a great style, i.e. Empathetic, active listener, positive attitude, confident, is it possible for a salesperson with great style to overcome a salesperson who only has substance? What do you think, Leah?

Leah Bumphrey:
Oh, absolutely. And you can end up as the consumer, as the person being sold, being taken down a road because it’s the story that’s pulling you and talking about movies that don’t have, necessarily a lot of substance. There have been so many great movies created with that being the plot.

I think of the movie Tin Man. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that one, but that comes to mind. They’re selling siding on the side of a house back in the 70s. And the techniques that they were using were humorous to watch as a professional salesperson, as a business person. But yet that is a fear factor for anyone being sold to that they are going to be taken on this trip, taken down this emotional journey and make a decision that’s not based on fact. Again, in business, as a professional, you want to have both. You want to have the substance, but also the style that gets you to a position where you can present what it is that you have.

It’s fascinating to me.

Dennis Collins:
Yeah, I think that’s a good point. I mean, we say today we’re trying to do the dichotomy, you know, substance or style, but really you need both. But I think sometimes the style is underestimated. The softer part, you know, it’s features and benefits. No, it’s style. Salespeople who know how to build an emotional connection, who know how to ask the right questions and know how to listen and actively listen and respond to the answers that a customer gives. These are the people that make the most sales. In fact, I’ve got a prop here.

Leah Bumphrey:
Ooh.

Dennis Collins:
Isn’t that pretty?

Leah Bumphrey:
That is very pretty. I like the color.

Dennis Collins:
This is going to be the topic of another episode. This is another example of style over substance. Now it is pretty, but I want there’s a whole story behind this.

Paul Boomer:
Hold on, as your producer…

Dennis Collins:
Yes.

Paul Boomer:
Yeah, I just showed up. As your producer. I need you to actually talk and tell those who are only listening on a podcast what it is, because remember, we’re both on podcast and on YouTube. So not everybody’s watching, some are also listening.

Dennis Collins:
What this is… Leah can probably describe it. What do you see here?

Leah Bumphrey:
It’s a beautiful cut crystal. It’s got a nice amethyst color to it. And man, this is not something you’re gonna find as you’re walking through the desert. Someone’s polished this and created a beautiful paperweight out of that.

Paul Boomer:
Yeah, it’s beautiful, isn’t it?

Leah Bumphrey:
And I know that there’s a story behind it.

Dennis Collins:
There is a story behind this. And I will tell that story on a future episode. It’s quite interesting, but it gets into this whole question of style or substance. And it also gets into the beauty of telling a story. So stay tuned for the story about this beautiful crystal that if you’re not watching, Leah just described it. It is beautiful. I do cherish this crystal. And I can’t wait to tell you the story.

So again, to close out today’s session, what’s our breakout challenge? We always have a challenge. So what is it for you? Is it style? Is it substance? I think you can conclude that you’ve got to have both. You definitely have to have something of value of substance, but you have to do it and say it and perform it with style. But if you had to choose just one, I’ll leave this up to you. What would it be? If you could only have style or substance, what would it be? That’s a thinking point, something to think about.

Maybe you want to answer that, Leah. Do you want to answer that?

Leah Bumphrey:
I know that we’re supposed to say substance and I’m not someone who watches some of these movies like that that we were talking about. When you have style, you have that much more of an opportunity to make a difference. When you have style, when someone remembers you, you have that much more of a chance for them to talk with you and get into what’s important. So I say, have some fun with it. Have some style, away we go.

Paul Boomer:
I hate to say it.

Leah Bumphrey:
Hold on. Paul, hello.

Paul Boomer:
I just came in. We’re running out of time. I know it, but there’s this one person that comes to mind that we’ve interviewed in the past that has style, other than you and Dennis and Leah.

Leah Bumphrey:
I know who it is. I don’t know who it is.

Paul Boomer:
You know who it is. Who is it?

Dennis Collins::
Who is it?

Leah Bumphrey:
Mr. Hat himself, Jack.

Paul Boomer:
Bingo.

Dennis Collins:
Jack Heald, yeah.

Paul Boomer:
You got it.

Dennis Collins:
We did two episodes with Jack. He was so fascinating. We did two Connect and Convert episodes with Jack Heald. And if you haven’t heard him, you need to go back and listen to those and watch those. He was fantastic.

Leah Bumphrey:
And if you haven’t heard him, but you’ve seen him and you’ve seen him wear that hat, you’re going to want to listen to what he says. And that’s where the style comes in.

Dennis Collins:
There’s a lot of smart stuff underneath that hat. So he’s got style and substance, doesn’t he? Okay, kids. I think that’s it for today. I am going to sign off with Leah for this episode of Connect and Convert.

Leah Bumphrey:
We’ll see you next week.

Dennis Collins:
Tune in.

Latest posts by Connect and Convert (see all)