Dennis Collins:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Connect and Convert, a sales accelerator podcast where small business owners come to learn insider secrets to growing sales faster than ever. I’m Dennis Collins. I’m joined, as always, by my lovely and talented partner. Hey, Leah. Leah Bumphrey.

Leah Bumphrey:
Hey, Dennis. How are you doing?

Dennis Collins:
I’m well.

Leah Bumphrey:
I’m from Canada. We are excited to have summer upon us.

Dennis Collins:
Summer upon you. That means it gets up to about 40 or 50 Fahrenheit – something like that.

Leah Bumphrey:
Oh, think Celsius, 40, 50 Celsius.

Dennis Collins:
Oh, that’s…

Leah Bumphrey:
Maybe not. Okay, not that hot. But yeah, we’ve got some blue sky and some nice weather.

Dennis Collins:
That’s nice. For the next couple of weeks, enjoy your summer. It’ll soon be over, I’m sure. But anyway, Leah, we have a great topic for today. I think a lot of our small business owners will be interested in this one.

Leader, manager or coach. When you’re hiring, what’s the difference? Are they all the same? Is a leader a manager and a coach? Or is a coach a manager and a leader? What’s the difference? I always like to share some of my weakest moments, my vulnerabilities.

Leah Bumphrey:
They’re not weak. They’re just learning opportunities. You’re willing to share so everyone can benefit.

Dennis Collins:
I’ll say that, boy. This was a big one. I had a key manager position open on my team. It was a sales manager. It was for my top station. I had three and this was the top biller, top ratings. So it was really important to get a great sales manager in for that team. They had a good sales manager and she had to leave, unfortunately. So I was up against it.

I have never worked harder in my life on hiring the right candidate. Not that we always did background checks. We always did resume checks. We always did reference checks. That was par for the course.

We always did three to four interviews in our building. My business manager would interview them. Maybe one of my program director managers would interview. So we had a 360 – they would ask questions that I wouldn’t ask and I would ask questions they wouldn’t ask. So we put it all together. We thought we had a pretty good picture.

Leah Bumphrey:
Yeah, that would give you a good look.

Dennis Collins:
Wouldn’t you think? And I really thought I was hiring a leader. A leader with vision, direction, strategy. He checked out. Six months, Leah. Disaster. I got fooled. Shame on me. It was expensive. My team looked at me like, you idiot. How could you hire this person? You told us you were hiring someone very special, a leader.

That’s not the guy. You really start double guessing yourself, double checking everything, you’re second guessing yourself and say, what the heck could I have done to hire a better person? Maybe you’ve had that same question.

Leah Bumphrey:
I’ve seen it happen. What I find interesting is it sounds like you did all the right things. You brought other people into this decision making process. It sounds like you were not hiring from within. So you had to check out external sources.

Dennis Collins:
It was outside.

Leah Bumphrey:
I have seen disasters when people actually hire with their gut as opposed to doing the hard work and actually doing the homework on the person and checking. So that is just always tragic because what a waste of time and money.

But you thought you were hiring a leader. Who are you hiring instead?

Dennis Collins:
I’m sorry to tell you this. He was incompetent. Clearly not a leader. He wasn’t even a manager or a coach. He wasn’t any of the three. Somehow he got through our mechanisms, he beat our system.

So I beat myself up pretty good on that one. And unfortunately, we had to part ways and made another decision. But that’s for another podcast. Today, I want to talk about – Leader, manager, coach – why are these different and how do we recognize the people and who are we getting and maybe first off, what is it that you need in that position?

Because if you need a leader, there are certain criteria. If you need a manager, another set of criteria. And if you need a coach, yet another.

So let’s start with leader. Vision, direction, strategy, big picture, thinking, charismatic, inspirational. Sounds almost godlike, right? Is there such a person out there? Have you ever worked with for a good leader, Leah?

Leah Bumphrey:
I have. And when you work for a good leader, it’s someone who, in my mind, is all of those things and not afraid to pick up the shovel or show you how to do it. They are there with you in the trenches doing it and understand what it is you’re doing.

Dennis Collins:
They’re the inspirational ones. Don’t they get you fired up? They get you excited about the mission, the big picture. They’re charismatic. Let’s mention a name. Jeff Bezos. You know who Jeff Bezos is?

Leah Bumphrey:
I do. Mr. Amazon himself.

Dennis Collins:
There is a person known for his long term thinking. Obsession with customers. Ability to rally his team around innovative ideas. This guy consistently communicates Amazon’s vision. You know what that is? To be the Earth’s most customer-centric company. He is that visionary, strategic, big picture, charismatic leader that rallies the troops.

So what’s a manager?

I’ve worked for a bunch of good managers, and I also had a lot of good managers working for me. I’m thinking of one guy right now. No names. This guy was an expert at planning and organizing, coordinating every task. He had deadlines. He had spreadsheets. He had every policy, every procedure. Absolute compliance. Accountable for results, accountable for attention to detail. Heavy duty problem solving skills. Maybe the best manager I’ve ever had working with me. I never worried about the details. Have you had a manager like that or work with somebody like that?

Leah Bumphrey:
I worked for a gentleman like that. And one thing that was very consistent, his desk had one piece of paper on it, what he was working on right then. He was a total administrative manager. He knew exactly what, when, spent the time, funneled it down. But I never saw his desk in disarray.

Dennis Collins:
And same with the guy I’m thinking it would be a mortal sin for him to have a stray piece of paper or something on his desk. Very organized. Tim Cook, Apple CEO, took over from Steve Jobs. Tough deal to take over from a charismatic, visionary leader like Jobs. But Cook is not that visionary leader. He is known for his operational expertise, supply chain, attention to detail.

However, he has successfully managed the complex global operations of Apple by making sure their production policies are efficient and their delivery is efficient. So a manager can succeed as the head of an organization.

So let’s drop to the last one, the coach. Did you play sports? I don’t remember. Maybe you still do. Did you play sports in school?

Leah Bumphrey:
A little bit, for sure. My kids, my now adult sons played a lot. Boy, they had some great coaches.

Dennis Collins:
Boy, me too. I can recall my kids had some spectacular coaches. And you know what made those coaches so good? They inspired self-discovery. How good are you? It’s in you. They focused on developing, empowering. They weren’t there to tell you everything to do every minute. They were there to ask questions, to listen, to identify your strengths, weaknesses, areas for growth. But it was all about self-reflection, continuous learning, continuous improvement, feedback on performance.

Leah Bumphrey:
It’s interesting – my middle son played on a high level hockey team, and the coach once said to Sean and I that he was now working with Jonah at a level where Jonah would eat a skate for him. And I had to agree, because Jonah would. Jonah would, because he was playing for this guy. He felt the connection.

He was a brilliant coach. And yes, Jonah would have eaten a skate for him.

Dennis Collins:
That’s tough on the teeth. I don’t know. I think we could agree – you may not know Ken Blanchard. Some people don’t know Ken Blanchard. Do you?

Leah Bumphrey:
Yeah, I’m familiar with his book.

Dennis Collins:
He wrote probably 30 books, but his most famous one was The One Minute Manager. And he’s a renowned management expert, bestselling author. He is known for The Coaching Approach, The Importance of Goals, Providing Feedback, Empowering. Like your son, empowering them to take ownership of their own development. Brene Brown, have you ever heard of Brene Brown? If you haven’t, I highly encourage you.

She has done a lot of research in the area of shame. She’s a Ph.D. researcher, professor, author, speaker. Vulnerability, courage, leadership, shame. She has studied that extensively. She’s known for ability to help individuals cultivate resilience, build trust. I highly recommend getting to know Brene Brown and her work. She’s all over YouTube. She has TED Talks on everything. They’re short, informative, excellent TED Talks. She’s got about 10 books out, I think, maybe not quite 10, but she’s got a lot of books out. They’re worth reading if you’re interested in learning how to be a great coach.

So there we have it. The three different aspects of bringing someone in to help you run your company.

Leah Bumphrey:
Here’s a question, Dennis. I have a question for you. Trick question. Which is best?

Dennis Collins:
I will answer that question with what might sound like a non-answer to you. None of them is the best.

Leah Bumphrey:
I agree.

Dennis Collins:
None of them is the best. However, what I always try to do is find someone who is good at all three. There are people that are good at all three. There are leaders who are good managers and who are good coaches. There are coaches who are good leaders and good managers. It is rare. It is very rare.

That’s why I put these in three different buckets, because the first thing to identify is what is it that you need in that particular management position? I’m thinking of a client right now who desperately needs a coach in a certain position, and they do not have that person. There’s a mismatch.

They have probably a manager, probably a pretty darn good manager, but not a leader and not a coach. Unfortunately, the needs of the organization would dictate that a coach would be able to do that job better than the other two. Now, wouldn’t it be nice if we had all three in one person? I bet the most successful person you’ve ever known in a business sense was all three. Maybe not perfect in all three. Probably not fair to ask you to conjure that person up just on the spur of the moment, but I’m thinking of people in my past that  they did all three. When I needed coaching, they gave me coaching. When I needed to be managed, when I needed accountability and management, I got that. And when I needed a vision, give me a vision, inspire me. Where are we headed? I got that.

Leah Bumphrey:
Dennis, what you’re describing is should be most small business owners when they’re first getting going. When they’re hiring their team, when they’re getting going, they need to be all these things. And then you can start hiring those positions.

Dennis Collins:
And I like what you said about which one are you? The founder of a business doesn’t have some magical powers that all of a sudden they can do all three perfectly. Which one are you? Are you the leader? Are you the coach? Are you the manager? OK, maybe you have two of those.

Paul Boomer:
Boomer sliding in here.

Dennis Collins:
I knew producer Paul would be waiting for that. I’m surprised it took you so long.

Paul Boomer:
Looking for the perfect spot. But I know you’re talking about in terms of they really need a coach. How do they find these coaches or leaders or mixes and such? Or is that another podcast that can be a whole ‘nother thing, right?

Leah Bumphrey:
Oh, yeah,

Dennis Collins:
That could be a book. Wow. I have some very strong ideas about why the typical interviewing process that we use in – I don’t know how it’s done in Canada, probably very similar to the states. Sucks. It’s awful. We really don’t uncover what we need to uncover. So, again, even though I made this huge mistake with this person I pointed out earlier, that forced me to change my ways. And I did change my ways. I had a different set of questions for each one of those modalities.

If I want to find out how good you are as a coach, I ask questions that bring that out. And you, Professor Boomer, you know that better than anyone. There are assessments. There are questions. There are ways to find that out. Would you not agree?

Paul Boomer:
Oh, by far. Most definitely. There are for every mixture that you want or don’t want. There are specific questions, great answers, great questions that bring out certain things, especially when it comes down to value-based questions.

Dennis Collins:
And I’m a big believer, as you guys know, in social styles, and I can tell you pretty much from the person’s social style which one of the three they’ll be pretty good at. Now they can fool you. There are some people who are highly versatile and can operate in all three of those areas. But your social style predicts in a very strong way, particularly coaching. There are certain social styles that are awful coaches, awful. Can they break out of that? Yeah. Versatility, if they’re versatile.

Paul Boomer:
I’m going to derail this whole conversation because we’re already over time. So how about this? I’m going to write this down and we’re going to have another discussion about this, I think, in the future, because I think it’s such a big thing. Because as Leah said, there are many times when, especially when you’re at the beginning of a business, an operation, there you evolve from needing one type to another and then you have a team.

So I think this is such a big topic that needs to be discussed. I’m going to write that down for future references so that we come back to it. So I’m going to get back out of here and let the two of you have your conversation.

Dennis Collins:
All right. Well, thanks for jumping in, Boomer.

I know this is an area that’s near and dear to your heart, so I appreciate your contribution. I don’t know other than just to sum up what we’ve talked about, I think there’s been a lot of interesting ideas put forth here, particularly about knowing who you are, knowing what your business needs. And then, as Paul points out, how do you find those people?

Leah Bumphrey:
Absolutely. And just even as a salesperson recognizing, if you’re in a sales position, what is it that you need? And are you in a position to ask the person for that? I need more coaching. I need more pushing. What is it that you need to get to the next level? And that is, I think that’s a challenge for all of our listeners this week, our listeners and viewers. What is it that you need as a business owner, as somebody actually working in the trenches, in the sales position, as someone who is wanting to get into a sales position?

Dennis Collins:
I think it all starts, Leah, with self-assessment. Who are you? And we have ways. Paul has ways. I have ways. There are things we can do to help you find out what kind of a leader you are.

Are you a manager type? Are you a coach? Are you a leader? Take advantage of those things. Find out a little bit about who you are and then take a hard look at your business. And the question is, what do you need? What is it particularly that you can’t bring or that is difficult for you to bring that you need someone else to help you bring? Isn’t that the name of the game?

Leah Bumphrey:
And personal responsibility, right? What am I willing to throw into the pot here so that we get some good soup happening?

Dennis Collins:
Wow. We got at least one or two more episodes on this topic. This is a deep topic. Boy, I didn’t realize what can of worms I was opening.

Leah Bumphrey:
We’ll be back, Dennis.

Dennis Collins:
We will be back. But for today, that’s it for this episode of Connect and Convert. See you next week.

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