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Dennis Collins: Hello everyone. It’s Dennis and Leah. Hi Leah.

Leah Bumphrey: Hey Dennis.

Dennis Collins: Welcome back for another episode of Connect & Convert brought to you by the Wizard Academy. Here’s where you learn insider secrets to help small business owners grow sales faster than ever.

Hey, Leah, today, this is a topic I get a lot of questions about. Maybe you’ve had some concerns and questions. What do you want from your next sales manager? You’re a small business owner, and all of a sudden, it becomes obvious you need to hire a new sales manager. Maybe the incumbent isn’t working out. Maybe you’ve never had a sales manager. What should you be looking for?

The sales manager position – we’ve all worked for sales managers. Some of us have been sales managers. This is one of the most crucial, and I think probably the least appreciated job in the building sometimes.

Leah Bumphrey: The dreaded middle manager.

Dennis Collins: Yeah. The sandwich manager you’re in between.

The sales manager is caught in between the boss or the owner, of course, who you work for and the clients who you also work for. And of course your salespeople, you’re caught right in the middle. I call it the pressure cooker. So Leah, I just wondered – you’ve worked for probably a lot of different sales managers. I have. I have been a sales manager. Why do you think we so often as small business owners make mistakes about hiring sales managers?

Leah Bumphrey: I think a lot of the time it’s because we don’t really understand the role that we’re hiring for. You’re giving up a lot of control if you’ve never had a sales manager before and suddenly you’re going to have someone that’s going to be liaising between what you want to do and what you want your business – your salespeople – to do for your customers.

And then, it’s that dreaded, are you hiring yourself? You’re hiring somebody with skills that are different than yours. I always believe in reverse engineering this. I have had sales managers that I love. I have had sales managers that honestly, it was a terrible experience. So what made it that way?

And the people that hired them, why did they have me working for these people?

Dennis Collins: Yep, that’s the question that a lot of business owners are asking. And you put a point on it. So let’s help our listeners try to understand this. Sometimes you can learn about what you should do by learning the things that you should not do.

So I’m sure, Leah, as I go through this, you will have some  thoughts about some of these and chime in please. First of all, seven things that you should not do as a small business owner when you’re trying to hire a new sales manager. Number one, don’t rely solely on just resumes. Interview deeply.

How about don’t underestimate the importance of EQ. What is EQ? We know what IQ is. EQ is emotional intelligence. The ability to listen, to collaborate, to lead. How does that hit you, Leah, when you think about sales managers you’ve known? The EQ level. High, medium, or low.

Leah Bumphrey: The emotion, the ability to connect with people, to not be above people, makes me think of a really good coach.

Most people have had some experience with sports, either you’ve played it. You’ve watched it on TV. Your kids have played it. The coaches that really get the kids, their athletes,  are the ones that are connected with them and make them want to do more. They’re not telling them to do more. They want to do more.

Dennis Collins: Isn’t that the essence of coaching? Truly. How about another “don’t do?” Don’t forget to take time to validate past performance, accomplishments, their responsibilities, their references. Boy, did I ever get burned on this. I had a guy that I hired as a sales manager. He had the best resume. He had all the pedigree. He had the education. And he documented on the resume a track record. I didn’t do a particularly good job of verifying that information, and it came back to bite me. Unfortunately, he was not a capable person. He could not lead. He was not a leader. He looked like a leader. He talked like a leader, but his performance was not that of a leader. Did that ever hurt? That cost me time, money, aggravation, embarrassment. Go down the list. Right?

Leah Bumphrey: It could even cost you a really good salesperson because honestly, you’ve hired someone, and then they’re ready to leave or they’re not performing. They’re upset and they pick that day to go feed the ducks because they’re not working for this guy.

Dennis Collins: It almost did. I had to save a couple of people, but a costly mistake. Learn from my stupidity and mistakes. Don’t do it. Don’t do what I did in that case. I learned though. I never did that again. Another one – get multiple perspectives in the interview. I had a rule in my radio stations. I call it a round of three. And what does that mean? So every viable candidate had to be interviewed by three managers. The hiring manager, the person who they were going to work for and two other managers on the team that they were not going to work for. Why? Perspective. So then we would all three meet. And we would talk about it-  “okay, here’s what I heard…” In every case, 100 percent of the time, the other folks heard and saw something either good or bad that I missed. The round of three worked extremely well for me.

Leah Bumphrey: I also once saw an interview process and I was involved in it. I wasn’t being hired as a sales manager, but my spouse and I were interviewed by the person I was going to be working for and you think that’s kind of weird, but really I was going to be in a position that was going to be important to know that it was supported – who I was, what my life looked like. And although it was kind of strange for Sean at the time, it made a lot of sense. And this company kind of got away from that and then back to it, but it’s always huge. Yeah, I mean, I would call this the round four of interviews. It’s how are they interacting with their spouse? Do they have their support? Is this a position that they’re going to be able to move forward having a secure foundation at home?

Dennis Collins: That’s another twist. Boy, I never did that. Maybe I wish I had in some cases, but that’s a great idea. Also here’s one that sometimes slips by the small business owner. Be aware of communication style mismatches. Now, what does that mean? We’ve done episodes here before on the four social styles? Driver, analytical, expressive, and amiable? And, I use this assessment, I just used it this week, I use it constantly to discover a person’s social styles. Why? So that we can understand how they process information.

Now, you can’t use that document as a pre hiring document because there’s no right or wrong social style. It’s difficult. It’s, not really useful as a pre employment, but get an idea in the interview of, does their style match your team? If you have a high analytical, someone who’s numbers oriented, data driven, and your team is expressive, Which is data averse – they hate data. That could be a mismatch unless there’s high versatility.

How about culture clashes? You know, our producer Boomer is an expert in the area of company culture. One of these days we’re going to have producer Boomer on this show as a guest to talk about business culture.

Skill fit is important. Of course it is, but make sure they share your values. Your work style preferences, your overall business approach, that can be a big no-no for a new sales manager. How about highly skilled top level salesperson? That’s the best candidate for sales manager, right?

Leah Bumphrey: Often not.  It’s a totally different skill set. And I’m not saying that someone can’t be very good at selling and also very good at managing, but wow, that’s a hard double whammy. Then you have someone who’s, even as a sales manager, more selling versus more administrative. These are important designations to think about as you’re looking at who you’re going to be hiring because yes, you might have this fantastic team and this guy is just blowing the numbers out of the park. But can he help other people do that? Is he someone that is willing to coach others or is it always about me?

Dennis Collins: I have seen this happen in the radio industry. I was in the industry for decades and it was very common for the top salesperson to be promoted to sales manager. That was the next logical step in progression and 90 percent of the time it didn’t work. You are so right. It’s a different skill set from an individual contributor to a manager. It does not equate. Does that mean no one who’s a top salesperson can do it? No. But be very careful. Don’t be blinded by the fact that they’re a top salesperson so that must mean they’re a top sales manager. That kind of goes back to something we talked about, the halo effect, in a previous episode.

Don’t let that halo effect fool you. So those are the things you shouldn’t do. Hey, shouldn’t we talk about the things you should do, Leah?

Leah Bumphrey: Yes, let’s be positive. Let’s look at that.

Dennis Collins: Let’s talk about seven things you should look for. Number one, you said it earlier, speak to this, if you will – coaching skills. What is the difference between teaching, mentoring and coaching? It’s different.

Leah Bumphrey: Absolutely. So when you’re coaching you’re in there – like a dirty shirt, maybe. I’m thinking of hockey. You’re on the ice and you’re you’re doing it. You have that ability to do it with your team, but teaching is a little bit different.

And when you think of teaching, we always go back to the whiteboard. We go back to the handouts that teachers have. It’s the ability to transfer knowledge. It’s “there’s this and away we go.” You can teach something and not be able to do it. You know, there’s the old saying – “those who can, can’t teach” and then mentoring.

Do you really care about your team? Are you able to put your arm around them and lead them to where they want to go? Now that’s not always the fault of the mentor. Sometimes people don’t want to be mentored. It’s like, I know this already.

Dennis Collins: Some people don’t want to be bothered,

Leah Bumphrey: And that’s where coaching comes in because if you have someone that can’t be taught, is not wanting to be mentored, they’re not in the student mode. And as a coach, you got to figure out pretty quick, do they belong on the team or not? We see this happen in the the million dollar salaries with professional sports. And I go back to sports because to me, sales and sports are very closely aligned.

Dennis Collins: I love your distinction between the three. Of all of those, I think the most misunderstood is the coaching.

I look at a good coach as being someone who is not – you can be a teacher and not a coach. You can be a mentor and not a coach. But a coach uses what’s in you to bring out the best in you. They use what’s in you. They bring it out by asking questions. Leah, “What do you think you could have done differently on that sales call,  Something you could do the next time that would give you a better outcome?” That’s the voice of a coach — I’m not teaching you anything.

Leah Bumphrey: A coach, it’s a trait that it doesn’t matter if that person is one of their salespeople. You’re hiring a coach to look after your sales team. But that person, if they have the trait of being a coach, when you see them in other aspects of their life, they’re someone who wants to make a difference. They’re someone who wants to help. That will be for your team, but when they’re talking to you, are they just blowing sunshine or are they talking like a coach when you look on their socials? Because man, if you’re just looking at resumes and you’re not looking at what they’re posting…

What are they posting about? Are they coaching the people in their lives? Are they involved in other things? A coach is not something that you can teach. You are a coach or you’re not.

Dennis Collins: Yeah, I think it’s intuitive. I do. I agree with you. You can teach somebody coaching skills, but to have that inner coach, I think that’s something that’s more intuitive than learned.

Let’s talk about another one of the things you should look for. How about exceptional one-on-one group and written communication skills. You know, every business is in the communications business. And if you hire a sales manager who can’t communicate you’ve just hampered yourself. You’ve made a big mistake. So check their communication skills.

How about a strong understanding of sales process? That’s sounds like “duh,” but you’d be surprised how many sales managers get hired that don’t understand the entire sales process from prospecting to closure and client retention after the sale and follow up.

Leah Bumphrey: And that is critical. That is critical because, and again, let’s look at this, a strong understanding of the process. You’re not saying a strong salesperson. Those are two different things. A lot of the best salespeople I’ve ever worked with had no idea how they were doing it, but to be able to teach, you’ve got to understand it.

Dennis Collins: What do they call it at the Wizard Academy? Unconscious competence. Yes. That’s another podcast. We’ll do that.

How about strategic thinkers? You know, sales managers that I hired back in the day. I kind of required them to think strategically. What does that mean? Well, talk to me about how you’re going to manage the accounts, our business, our clients. How about territories or account lists or whatever you have? How about pricing? Pricing management? That’s critical strategic thinking. How about negotiation skills? How are you at negotiation? How about creative solutions to problems? The ability to establish and manage the key sales metrics? These are all strategic things that my new sales manager needs to do.

Leah Bumphrey: But also when they’re answering that question, that also gives you some insight into what kind of person are they? Because are they just plowing ahead with this? Is how they’ve always done it?  Is this what they believe? This is what they’re gonna do? Are they open to talking with their sales team? Are they open to your process? Are they willing to sit back and learn? Now, it depends where it is that you are in the hiring process, but what you need is going to be revealed when they’re talking or what you don’t want is going to be revealed when they’re explaining what their process is.

Dennis Collins: And that’s why we interview deeply to find these things out.

Let’s round up the last three here. Solution focused. I don’t want a sales manager coming into my office with a problem. I want them coming in with a problem that has a solution that they have figured out. How about a winning record of performance? Remember we talked about that earlier. Verify their track record. Verify the fact that they can grow revenue, work for previous employers by managing a team. Not just themselves, but a team. And last, number seven, technical savvy. I don’t think we can get around that in this day and age. You’ve got to understand the technical part of the business. Understand data, understand how data is used to enhance sales, understand all things technology.

Leah Bumphrey: And not be afraid of it. You can’t be afraid of it.

And that’s part of being savvy. That’s why we have Boomer, right? Because there’s stuff that he knows and we know where to find that information. That’s being savvy. It doesn’t mean we have to know everything, but we have to be open to asking and have someone to ask.

Dennis Collins: Yeah, I’m afraid of it.

Leah Bumphrey: You are not. You are not.

Dennis Collins: Let’s close this out with some pluses and minuses. Let’s look at the upsides and downsides of getting the right sales manager. Let me start with the negatives, unfortunately. The poor leadership, lack of direction from a poor sales manager – it’s going to demoralize salespeople. They’re going to leave.

And I unfortunately had that happen. Remember, people fire their immediate boss, not the company. They fire their immediate boss. So, the negativity leads to increased attrition. The lack of accountability. I’m a big stickler on accountability. Who’s responsible for what and when? That sales manager who’s not performing, who is not accountable, lacks direction, lacks a sense of urgency, has low performance standards.

That’s going to not only not enhance your business, it’s going to take it the other way in a downward direction. And the third, the third negative is inconsistent customer experience. Client management is uneven and reactive. How do we manage our clients? How do we retain our clients?

Those are the three negatives. How about the positives? How about you’re the boss, Leah. You own a business. And you’re doing a DIY sales manager. You’re doing a do it yourself sales manager. How does that work out for you?

Leah Bumphrey: Here’s the thing. You want to be a business owner. You don’t want to be a job owner. That’s the whole point of getting into business. So when you can find the right person to delegate that kind of authority to, to help you grow your business, who’s going to share your passion for what it is that you’re doing. My goodness, you are freeing yourself up to actually work on your business – not work in your business, but work on it, make it grow faster, be able to have a bird’s eye view, and trust the person that you’re hiring.

That is huge.

Dennis Collins: That to me is one of the best points as to why you need to recruit that quality sales manager. Work on your business, not in your business. Well said. How about the sales manager is close if they’re doing their job, a good sales manager can identify where we need improvement.

One of the best ways, by the way, to grow your business is hiring that effective sales manager. That does grow business when you have an effective sales manager. And of course, make sure that you get the right blend. Sales leadership abilities. Strategic skills and people skills. Gosh, I think we just described the perfect person that doesn’t exist out there.

Leah Bumphrey: But you know what, there’s nothing wrong with having that perfect matrix. And then you weigh different things as you meet the individual. There are surprising things about working for people. With people, there’s always going to be that positive and that negative, but it can bring out incredible opportunities with your team.

It can make them see parts of themselves they’ve never seen before, and it can make you see parts of your business you haven’t before. It’s all in the right person, because we’ve said it before, Dennis. Product, you can teach anybody product, but the type of person, that’s what you’re looking for. Do you trust them?

Do you want to take them, spend time with them? Do you see them as someone who is as committed to your passion, your business as you are?

Dennis Collins: Well, again, that is so true. Easy to say, not easy to do, but give it a shot. I hope this has been helpful in guiding your thinking towards your new sales manager.

We’ll see you next time.

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