Your One-On-Ones Aren’t Failing: Your Trust Is

Dennis Collins: I went and looked at the calendars and I checked to see how many meetings were scheduled and how many one-on-ones were canceled. You know what I found? 50%. Five. Zero. Half the meetings that were scheduled never happened.

Leah Bumphrey: So they never rescheduled them? You just canceled them?

Dennis Collins: Wasn’t me, it was my managers. I was looking at their schedule. My team, my managers, the guys that worked for me, guys and gals said they wanted to do one-on-ones with people. I said, “Sure, go ahead.” And then I monitored to see how many actually happened.

Leah Bumphrey: Okay, were you doing one-on-ones with them too? Like, trickle down?

Dennis Collins: Yes.

Leah Bumphrey: Okay.

Dennis Collins: Yeah.

Leah Bumphrey: Did you cancel meetings with them?

Dennis Collins: No, I didn’t do that. Leah, do you know me better than that? I wouldn’t cancel.

Leah Bumphrey: I’m wondering, where did they learn this behavior? 

Dennis Collins: I don’t know, madam. Leah, I don’t know. 

Leah Bumphrey: I would love a one-on-one with you.

Dennis Collins: So here, let me tell you this. In the weeks that the meetings happened, when they actually occurred, not my meetings but their meetings, I checked and found out nothing was different. So nothing was different between the weeks the meetings did happen and the weeks they didn’t happen. So obviously, as the leader, my question was, “Why the hell do you say you’re gonna do these meetings? 50% of the time you don’t do it.” So you’re setting an expectation and you’re not fulfilling it. What changed? Nothing. So why not delete all the one-on-ones? So I finally… Screw it. One-on-ones are useless. They’re held for the wrong reasons…

Paul M. Boomer: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah. How? How? Wait. You just said you were having one-on-ones with your leaders, right? And you just said they’re worthless. Explain that to me.

Dennis Collins: Mine weren’t worthless. 

Paul M. Boomer: Okay, why were they not worthless?

Dennis Collins: Well, I’m not gonna tell you that secret just now. I have my own opinion…

Leah Bumphrey: You know what, Paul? It’s like this. I got four tires on my vehicle and one of them is flat, so I’m getting rid of all the tires. All the tires are going because that flat tire is no good to me. So they’re all wrong.

Dennis Collins: Oh, I like that, Leah. Good idea. Okay, now you guys have all at some point in your careers had one-on-ones, right? You’ve had to do a one-on-one with a boss. What do you think? Useless or useful?

Leah Bumphrey: It depends on the meeting. You do it so that it makes sense, so that it’s a process that works. If there’s no change from it, then that’s garbage. It’s like I watch TV sometimes. I don’t watch stupid TV. I watch smart TV. I know that shocks you. 

Dennis Collins: Of course you do. But you would never do anything stupid.

Leah Bumphrey: No. I don’t get rid of all the tires on my car ’cause I have one flat. One-on-ones, I mean, that in the name is your opportunity to talk with somebody who you’re working for or who’s working…

Dennis Collins: But Leah, they’re not making a difference. I determined they weren’t making a difference.

Leah Bumphrey: Easy for you to say.

Paul M. Boomer: At any point in time between you and your leaders or the leaders and them, was it set up in such a way that, “This is the purpose for the one-on-one. This is what we’re trying to achieve each and every week”?

Dennis Collins: Yeah, it was. It was kind of a status report.

Paul M. Boomer: Okay. And was there a template of…”So what’s going on?”

Dennis Collins: Well, no, I don’t know if there was an official template, but it was something like, “Okay, what’s going on? What’s on your plate? What’s happened?” Yeah, it was something like that. That’s a great setup, isn’t it?

Paul M. Boomer: It’s a very loose setup.

Leah Bumphrey: Oh, it’s like following a recipe. I’m gonna put a little this and a little that and a little… I’ve never done it before. No, that’s crap.

Dennis Collins: Well, it goes something like this. “What’s on your plate? What’s going on?” “Okay, these 10 things.” “Okay, so what do you need from me?” “Nothing, boss. I don’t need anything from you.” “Okay, great job.”

Leah Bumphrey: If the people you’re having your one-on-one with… And I’m talking to managers and owners here right now. If they don’t value time with you, they shouldn’t be working for you. If you are not giving them something valuable, if they’re not coming to the table saying, “Help me with this. I need your help. This is an opportunity I have. Do you have any ideas?” I worked at a place and they used the term “humble student mode.” That means I’m pretty sure I know what I’m doing, but I’m still gonna ask somebody else.

Paul M. Boomer: Okay, well, hold on. I love you, Leah. That is so Canadian.

Dennis Collins: Oh, boy. Yeah.

Leah Bumphrey: Beautiful. Look at the red. Absolutely.

Paul M. Boomer: Exactly.

Dennis Collins: Now we’re getting into… Oh, boy.

Paul M. Boomer: I do not know… Actually, I do know, but for the most part, I do not know any American who is gonna go to their boss on their first few days or weeks or even months and say, “Boss, I want you to tell me and teach me.” There’s no way. There’s no way.

Dennis Collins: Not all. And you know why? One of the main reasons, ’cause you look foolish. You look like you don’t know what the hell you’re doing. It’s a sign of weakness.

Leah Bumphrey: You don’t come with your hat in hand. You come with, “Okay, I kind of think this is how I should be changing this tire. What do you think? Is this the right solution?” You always come with a possibility.

Dennis Collins: So, okay, Leah…

Leah Bumphrey: And you’re willing to discuss it.

Dennis Collins: With all due respect to you and your Canadian values, which are obviously wonderful…

Leah Bumphrey: Which are heavily tariffed.

Dennis Collins: Are we tariffed in your values as well?

Leah Bumphrey: Oh, I’m ready. I’m ready for it.

Dennis Collins: We’re gonna have to do a podcast on that. Okay, let me say this. There is a danger for a boss to come to a subordinate, even in a one-on-one, and say, “How can I help you?” Now, you all may not… You may think that’s a lovely statement and that’s a very innocent request, a very innocent and helpful thing. I am going to tell you right now, it’s dangerous. Do you have any reason why I might think that? “How can I help you?”

Leah Bumphrey: I mean if you want. It shouldn’t be. If it’s dangerous, I’m not working for somebody who I feel it’s dangerous to go and talk to. I’ve had those opportunities and I’ve said, “No, thank you,” and moved on.

Dennis Collins: “How can I help you?” So the team member says, “Well, I need you to do this, this, this, and this. I need you to do four things.” All of a sudden, the team member becomes the damn boss. They’re telling you what you should do. That’s dangerous. Let them figure it out.

Leah Bumphrey: That’s the saddest thing I’ve ever heard of. You don’t think it’s a partnership? You don’t think that that is so sad?

Paul M. Boomer: That is sad.

Leah Bumphrey: There’s no partnership?

Paul M. Boomer: So to me, I’m listening to this and it comes down to trust. It comes down to what kind of trust, what kind of culture, what kind of leadership, what kind of everything that is underlying human dynamics is going on in that business? What is lacking? And if you don’t have that kind of trust… And Leah, I was a little harsh on that Canadian statement, but it is, I believe, true in that most Americans are not gonna go to their boss and say, “I need help with this, this, and this.”

However, if the atmosphere, if the culture is created properly and with intention, you can have a place in any part of the world where an employee feels comfortable going to their boss and saying, “Here’s where I’m stuck. What do you suggest?” Or, “Here’s where I’m confused. What do you suggest?” And have a dialogue more than asking, “I want you to do this.”

Leah Bumphrey: Nicely said.

Dennis Collins: There are ways to do it. I agree.

Leah Bumphrey: Are we gonna get rid of now sales meetings as well because, oh, everybody’s together, you’re not able to do anything?

Dennis Collins: Let me ask you something. You’ve attended how many… In your life, how many sales meetings have you attended in your whole career?

Leah Bumphrey: Oh…

Dennis Collins: Thousands?

Leah Bumphrey: Monday morning, Tuesday afternoon, Friday morning. Oh, let’s throw an extra one in on Thursday.

Dennis Collins: What’s the value? Name the value.

Leah Bumphrey: Okay, that’s a whole other topic. You’re creating this…

Dennis Collins: Oh. Well, that’s what I’m talking about.

Leah Bumphrey: But the problem is, if I can’t talk one-on-one with the person I’m supposed to be working with, for, my coach, whatever little nice word you want to use for it, if you don’t have time with them and you’re just with them when there’s a whole glug of people around, you’re never gonna form a relationship. You’re never gonna feel comfortable talking to them. They’re never gonna be able to lead you in all the places you can go.

Dennis Collins: So you’re assuming that the one-on-one would be the only contact you have with this person. I don’t see it that way. Okay? I see people doing collaborative work together. In sales, sales managers oftentimes go out on sales calls with salespeople to watch them, observe them, learn the client. The one-on-one is not the only contact you have with somebody. I’m specifically looking at that…

Leah Bumphrey: When did I say it was? When did I suggest it was?

Dennis Collins: Well, you made it sound like that’s the only time you get a chance to talk to your boss.

Leah Bumphrey: It’s designated…

Dennis Collins: Not true. Designated.

Leah Bumphrey: It shows that I’m important enough to Paul that Paul says, “Leah, I want to spend a half hour with you one-on-one, just the two of us, talking about anything that is going on, but I have some specific things I’m gonna bring up too.” A one-on-one is a tool. And if you’re gonna throw the hammer away, then you know what you’re gonna be? You’re gonna be using your screwdriver to nail that nail in. And I’ve done it. I’ve used a screwdriver to nail it. It’s not your best tool.

Paul M. Boomer: So Bill Withers is singing in my head here. “♪Just the two of us.♪”

Dennis Collins: Bill Withers, eh?

Paul M. Boomer: Yeah.

Dennis Collins: “♪Just the two of us.♪”

Paul M. Boomer: Yes. 

Dennis Collins: That’s good. Should we do a duet?

Paul M. Boomer: No.

[laughter]

Dennis Collins: That was never a good song.

Leah Bumphrey: It’s always fun to sing on Zoom. So what’s the situation here? What are we solving? What are we helping people? We’re not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. That’s a Canadian one. Just because a one-on-one’s not working doesn’t mean you stop it. You fix it.

Dennis Collins: And Madam Leah, how would you fix it?

Leah Bumphrey: Again, real people, Dennis. If I’m having a one-on-one with Paul, it’s gonna be remarkably different than the one-on-one I have with you. Because each of you need to learn different things. 

Dennis Collins: You don’t teach us.

Paul M. Boomer: Keep going down that road. Hold on, Leah. Keep going down that road. Why would it be different? Why do we need different things?

Dennis Collins: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Leah Bumphrey: Because as a good leader, you need the opportunity to get to know your people, but they need the opportunity to get to know you. That’s how there’s this relationship, this back and forth. And by having time that is structured and you can rely on it… And I’m not talking hours, half an hour. “What’s happening? What’s going on?” It’s also an opportunity to say, “Hey, what’s going on at home? What’s happening? What could possibly be affecting Monday to Friday this week?”

Paul M. Boomer: Beyond that, Leah, what does a business get out of doing it that way, thinking of it that way? What do they get out of that? Out of having that constant communication?

Leah Bumphrey: You will as a leader know that person’s gonna leave, that person is not so solid, this person is doing great things. Oh, look at this is what this person is seeing. Your team becomes eyes into what it is you’re trying to accomplish. This is the company goal. This is what I want as an owner. These are the people that are really working with me. It’s like looking at tape if you’re an NFL player. Yes. The ones that really know what’s happened, they’re looking at tape with their coach and they’re doing it as a team, but they’re also doing it by themselves.

Paul M. Boomer: And Dennis, what are you saying?

Dennis Collins: Well, I’m reflecting heavily on some of the things Leah said, and I happen to agree that you should get to know your team. You should know about them. You don’t do that in a one-on-one. You do that, have lunch with them, take their spouse and them to dinner, do something…

Leah Bumphrey: Why couldn’t that be…

Dennis Collins: That’s not a one-on… No, no, no, no. A one-on-one, I’m talking about a one-on-one in a business sense is not that. It’s not relationship.

Leah Bumphrey: You are too constrained, Dennis. You’re too constrained by your definitions.

Dennis Collins: I know.

Leah Bumphrey: I’m talking to your listeners. Wizardacademy.org, if it’s taught me anything, it’s broad definitions. What is it that you’re trying to achieve? How are you communicating and moving in that direction?

Dennis Collins: Let’s talk about a typical business one-on-one. Paul, you had something to add?

Paul M. Boomer: No, I was gonna say, so what I hear all of us kind of agreeing with, and so that the listeners can know exactly… I keep saying, calling ’em “listeners,” watch it, we have viewers, whatever. Get out of this…

Dennis Collins: Viewers, audience, our audience, our audience…

Paul M. Boomer: Or our people.

Leah Bumphrey: Our audience, our people, our tribe.

Paul M. Boomer: Is one-on-ones by definition… You know what? Throw out the definition of one-on-ones. It’s sitting down with people individually and getting to know them on different levels, from personal all the way to business, to education, to understanding what’s going on. Keep doing that, absolutely. But do it with intention and purpose, which I think is the same thing. But do it with intention.

Dennis Collins: Intention. Okay, I buy that.

Leah Bumphrey: And change the name. I’ve never liked the term one-on-one. 

Dennis Collins: What should it be? Oh, come on, rename it. Rename it.

Leah Bumphrey: It’s just…

Dennis Collins: Getting to know you. 

Leah Bumphrey: Recess. Or something.

Dennis Collins: A recess? Let’s have recess, yeah.

Paul M. Boomer: Let’s have lunch.

Leah Bumphrey: If you don’t like the name, if it feels one-on-one is like this, then change it.

Dennis Collins: So do any of your… Have any of your bosses ever taken you to dinner or lunch or to have a personal conversation about you and your family? Has that happened?

Paul M. Boomer: Yes.

Dennis Collins: Is that a one-on-one? Is that a one-on-one, guys?

Leah Bumphrey: It better be.

Dennis Collins: It can be.

Leah Bumphrey: Why wouldn’t it be?

Paul M. Boomer: It’s lunch.

Dennis Collins: Okay, but what’s the purpose of taking someone to lunch? Think about it. Why do you do that?

Leah Bumphrey: Now I’m singing that song again.

Dennis Collins: Why do you do that? Okay, I want to bring this back to a business-focused one-on-one. Yes, I think we agree there are different kinds of one-on-ones and there are different reasons. And I totally support what Leah is saying. The better you know your team, the better for all, for them and for you.

Leah Bumphrey: And that’s the reason. You said there’s a whole bunch of reasons, Dennis. It’s not a whole bunch of reasons. It’s about forming connection. Paul, connection. Is there anything more important?

Paul M. Boomer: Absolutely not. That’s trust. That’s how you build culture. That’s how you build direction. That’s how you build, “We’re going that way.”

Leah Bumphrey: I think we’re done.

Dennis Collins: Well, let me finish. 

Paul M. Boomer: No!

[laughter]

Dennis Collins: I just want to share a framework. If you believe that one-on-ones for business are good, let me give you a couple things to think about. “Since our last talk, tell me something you’d like to get better at.” “What’s been harder to accomplish than you ever expected?” “What are you learning about in the last few weeks about how you work best?” “And what are your next steps?” “What do you plan to do next?” Okay? What do you think?

Leah Bumphrey: So you’re just talking about having an agenda for the one-on-one. Good. Let’s do it. Always have a reason for meeting. We’re good.

Dennis Collins: Yes.

Leah Bumphrey: But you can’t use those same questions every week.

Dennis Collins: Yes, you can. Why can’t you?

Paul M. Boomer: Oh, I was so close to saying, “And that’s all, folks.”

Dennis Collins: “Since our last talk, what is something you’d like to get better at?” That can be done every week. “Since we talked last week, how’s it going? You said last week you wanted to get better at XYZ. How’s it going?”

Leah Bumphrey: If I know it’s coming, it’s no longer doing anything because I know it’s coming.

Dennis Collins: So there shouldn’t be any framework for a one-on-one, right? Is that what you’re saying?

Leah Bumphrey: Again, how are you gonna form connection that week? That’s all you need. Form a connection, move forward, have a couple of questions.

Dennis Collins: See, I push back big time on that because that is not the purpose. That is a purpose, but it is not the main purpose of a one-on-one in my world.

Paul M. Boomer: What is the purpose? What is yours?

Dennis Collins: Mine is to do exactly what those four statements just said. Find out what is it that they are working on that they want to excel at, that they want to get better at. “What is harder? What are you running into? What obstacles? What are things that you didn’t expect? How are you learning about how you work best? You’ve probably learned when you do this, you work better than when you do this. Share that with me and I’ll give you feedback on that. And what are you gonna do next? What are you gonna do next?” That’s what I want to get out of a one-on-one.

Paul M. Boomer: Okay. What is the purpose of asking those four questions?

Leah Bumphrey: Have an agenda?

Dennis Collins: The purpose of asking those four questions is to develop my team, to get them thinking about developmental issues and not just tasks. 

Leah Bumphrey: So you don’t care about me. It’s only business. You don’t care about me. You have an agenda…

Dennis Collins: Wow.

Leah Bumphrey: Well, that’s how you’re coming across. No wonder you want to cancel them.

Dennis Collins: I’m shocked at what you just said. How could you say, how could you honestly say that I don’t care about somebody with those four questions? It’s all about them. It’s all about them. It’s not about me. It’s about them.

Leah Bumphrey: It’s how you’re gonna use that information. That’s how you sound right now.

Dennis Collins: How am I gonna use it? Wow…

Leah Bumphrey: You’re about to use it and now I’m suspicious. You’re gonna use it against me. You’re gonna have a little, “Oh, but you said this, this, and this.” Okay. Now I want to cancel my one-on-one with you.

Dennis Collins: Paul, Paul, you gotta intervene here because this is getting… That is considered to be diabolical, asking those four questions? I’m gonna use them against you? 

Paul M. Boomer: No. So, I’m seeing both sides because I have been in that position, actually, of those exact answers to those questions being used against me.

Dennis Collins: Really?

Paul M. Boomer: Yes.

Dennis Collins: How so?

Paul M. Boomer: What I just wrote down, what I just wrote down is one-on-ones, lunches, get-togethers, whatever you want to call ’em, it is about creating trust and relationship. Because if you come at me the very first day and multiple times, Dennis, asking me those same questions, I start fearing, “Why are you asking me these questions? What am I doing right? What am I doing wrong? How are you gonna use it against me?” if we do not have that trust with each other yet.

You have to first build that relationship. Then you can start asking more deeper questions to truly and honestly say, “Hey, Dennis,” or “Hey, Paul, I’m gonna ask these questions and I want to know honestly how I can best support you. Here are the questions.” Because you can ask that question, those questions, because you’ve created that trust and you’ve started that relationship of “I am genuinely here and now I can trust you. I’m genuinely here as Dennis to help you, Paul, succeed.” You can’t do that until you ask and create that relationship.

Dennis Collins: Well, you’re bringing up a predicate, a foundation, if you will, for any type of relationship in a business that is based on psychological safety. If I don’t feel safe talking openly and honestly with you, no one-on-one, no nothing is gonna help if I don’t feel safe. So I’m writing it down right now. We’re gonna do a podcast on psychological safety. It happens to be one of my pet projects.

Leah Bumphrey: Okay, I’m leaving. I’m now… I’m very upset. I need a one-on-one.

Paul M. Boomer: With Dennis or with Paul?

Leah Bumphrey: Both of you. Both of you. But I’m shocked with both of you.

Dennis Collins: Really? 

Paul M. Boomer: Bring it.

Leah Bumphrey: In a good way.

Dennis Collins: Yeah.

Leah Bumphrey: In a good way.

Dennis Collins: Well…

Paul M. Boomer: We love you too.

Dennis Collins: Paul, she’s mad at us. What’d we do?

Leah Bumphrey: I’m going.

Paul M. Boomer: I think we’re screwed, Dennis. I think we need to move down to Mexico.

Leah Bumphrey: Okay.

Dennis Collins: Okay.

Leah Bumphrey: Yeah, it’s coming. That’s all I’m saying.

Dennis Collins: Bye. 

Paul M. Boomer: Until next time.

Dennis Collins: Till next fight.  It’s fight night in Canada.