Dear Reader,

There’s a lie most brands tell themselves.

If we just soften the message, more people will listen.

So they remove the edge.

They dilute the point.

They chase approval instead of conviction.

And then they wonder why no one remembers them.

In this episode, Roy reminds us that advertising doesn’t work by volume.

It works by gravity.

The brands that grow aren’t the ones everyone agrees with.

They’re the ones that speak clearly enough for the right people to say,

“That’s for me.”

Todd brings it back to leadership — because this isn’t just a marketing issue.

It’s a courage issue.

If you’re unwilling to repel anyone, you’ll never attract anyone deeply.

If you try to please everyone, you’ll connect with no one.

This conversation isn’t about being loud. It’s about being clear.

And clarity always costs you something.

 

Watch/listen above or read below.

Todd Liles: This is one of those myths that sounds smart until you test it. Business owners will say, “We want our ads to appeal to everyone.” Now, it sounds safe, but it’s actually the most dangerous thing that you can do. Trying to appeal to everyone makes your message average. It waters down the emotion and the clarity and the story that makes people care. Now, Roy has said this in other episodes before, but it’s better to be loved by a few than to be tolerated by many. And today, Roy and I, we’re gonna explore why the best brands don’t speak to the masses, they speak to a tribe. Roy, we’re gonna tackle another myth today.

Roy Williams: Okay.

Todd Liles: Which is that an ad should appeal to absolutely everyone.

Roy Williams: That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard.

Todd Liles: I know, but a lot of people think that, right? It’s like, “If this ad doesn’t reach everybody, then I’m doing something wrong. I’m wasting my money.” You wrote this in Category Dominance. It’s the following: “Category dominance can be achieved only through focus with commitment. Will you be category dominant? If so, you must take a stand and be known for something.” I think a lot of people are fearful of the ad that might seem to polarize, right? So they’re like, “Oh, the safe bet here is just to say something soft and weak around the edges.”

Roy Williams: Okay, so here’s the question, here’s the question, and I say this to the audience. Can you name something, anything that everyone agrees on? Because if you can’t, you’re gonna have to realize that there is nothing that everybody is gonna like and will never be criticized by anyone. So when you understand the reality of that, you have to choose who to lose, because any message that has enough horsepower to pull a fat kid off the toilet is going to alienate some people and it’s gonna powerfully attract other people.

And so magnet… A magnet is a funny thing. North to south, south to north, click, they come together and they bond. But if you turn one of them around backwards so it’s north to north, south to south, they repel each other, they push each other apart. I’m sure you’ve played with magnets. An ad is like a magnet. It will attract some people with exactly the same power that it repels other people. And if you’re not willing to repel anyone, you attract no one. So here’s the thing, write ads that are powerful, that serve as a filter, choose who you want to attract and who you want to repel. And if you don’t have the courage to do that, then you need to prepare to be mediocre for the rest of your life. And I mean that in the spirit of love.

Todd Liles: Yeah, Roy, I think that’s well said. Why do you think, or what’s going on emotionally that… And I’m asking you, imagine you’re training a young copywriter. As a matter of fact, I meant to tell you, we actually got contacted by a radio ad salesman in Minneapolis. He sent me a long question, I’ll have to get it to you eventually. But imagine you’re a copywriter and you’re young and you’re new, and you’ve been given your first assignment, and you’ve written something that you think, like, “Oh, this is good.” But there’s a couple lines in here that I think are gonna offend some people, and they want to take the pen and scratch it out. What’s going on in that young copywriter’s head that they don’t trust their instincts and they start overthinking things?

Roy Williams: All right, here’s the deal, here’s the deal. Anytime… I’ll tell you how I overcome this. I’ve got a thing that I do to keep that under control. It’s real simple. I never, ever, ever send the script to the client. Because if you send the script to the client, they’ll print it out and they’ll hand it around and say, “What do you think about this? What do you think about this?” You know what everybody does when you ask them what they think about it? They read it as a judge. And you know what they’re looking for? They’re looking for who it might offend. And that’s what they’re doing. They’re not reacting to it like a human being. They’re looking to see what might be wrong with it. And so the last thing you ever want to do is let the decision maker pass around a script. Therefore, I’ve got the scripts finished. And then you know what I do? I get the decision maker on the phone. And until I talk to them on the phone or on a Zoom call, they don’t get the scripts.

Todd Liles: Yeah. That’s wise.

Roy Williams: And you know what I do? I don’t let them see it. I read it to them. And after I’ve read it to them, they react like a human being, and then we talk about it. And then I show them the script, and we read it together line by line. And I point out to them, “See this line right here? I did that on purpose, and here’s why. You are going to get pushback from people on this. But before you get the pushback, let me tell you, I did think about this. This is the decision I made, here’s why I made it, and this would be the alternative. If we didn’t do this, we would be left with this.” And he goes, “Oh, I see what you did. I see why you did it. That makes sense to me.”

So I will explain everything that could possibly be misinterpreted or attacked in the script. Get the business owner to go, “Yep, I see what you did there. Makes perfect sense. I’m glad you pointed that out.” And so whenever somebody goes, “Oh, this thing right here,” he goes, “Yeah, yeah, me and Roy already talked about that. I know what’s going on here. We agreed that’s the right thing to do.” And if they want to, they can even explain why it’s the right thing to do.

But if a person is smart and the boss is saying, “No, this is what we’ve decided. I’m very aware of it. We’ve already talked about it,” you don’t push that any farther if you’re an employee, if you have a brain in your head. Because anytime you pass around a script, if it’s any good at all, every little weasel within 100 yards is gonna want to point out what’s wrong with it. And if you listen to all of them because they all have value, no, they don’t have value as ad writers, because advertising is counterintuitive. And this is why so many very smart people are bad at it, Todd.

Todd Liles: You know what you just said right there, for the listener, Jake Williams is Roy’s son, and he’s very, very, very…

Roy Williams: He’s one of them.

Todd Liles: Yeah, he’s one of them. There’s also Rex.

Roy Williams: Yeah.

Todd Liles: Yes, yes. And several grandkids. But Jake works in the business. He’s the president at Wizard Marketing in The Wizard of Ads. And I could just imagine Jake lifting this section and sending that to the partners going, “Listen to this.” Because I’d asked the question, what was going on in the mind of the copywriter? And you gave me a slightly different perspective, because I was imagining in the mind of the copywriter them potentially alienating or fearing the audience. And what you just shared with me is what happens is they probably write something amazing and then they get an early wound because they gave it to a client who they’re really trying to please.

They’re thinking about, will this be pleasing to the client? As opposed to, I can please the client now by letting them change my copy and making this weak and ineffective, or I can please the client later by delivering something to the marketplace that’s gonna make the phones ring and people are gonna fall in love with us. And I totally get what you’re saying, because while I don’t have as much opportunity to have creative and poetic license as you do in my field, there are certain times when I do. And you’re absolutely right. Send it to them in advance, show your team, let everybody weigh their opinion on it. Nope, it usually comes out ruined. No, no. You and I are gonna talk. I’m gonna share with you what I’m thinking. I’m gonna unpack what’s going…

Roy Williams: If you let people… If you give something powerful to a committee, they will water it down until it is harmless, inoffensive, bland, and pointless. And I’m saying that’s always what they will do. The committee will drag you to the middle, to the safe, pointless, boring middle. And here’s what happens, my partners all know, they’ve heard me say this too many hundreds of times. If you let other people water down your ads, you’re setting yourself up to take the blame when they don’t work.

Todd Liles: Yes.

Roy Williams: And I said, they’re not gonna work, and you’re gonna get blamed, and you’re gonna be told that your ads are not effective. And I said, so if you let them make the ads ineffective, and then because you agreed to let them do it and you rewrote the ad, you do get the blame. They do not remember, “We made him change that.” They remember only that this is the ad you gave them. And so it’s like, nope, if you’re gonna go down, go down for what you know is right. And I said, the only person that can ever, ever get me to change anything is the owner who heard me and then said, “No, I want to overrule that.” Cool. I work for you. And conversation’s over, and I’ll change it to whatever they want. We had a private moment, and nobody ever knows that I changed it because he asked me to.

That doesn’t happen very often, but I know I’m not the CEO. And when the CEO… I call it having my day in court. If I can explain, “Here’s what I think we need to do, and here’s why I think we need to do that,” and he goes, “Nah, I don’t want to do that,” say, “Okay, what do you want to do?” And then I change it. So what I’m saying is to fight and be heard when you know what matters. But when the person who’s paying for it and who has to live with it, hears you, understands you, and wants you to do it different, then you instantly do it different with a smile, and you never bring it up again.

Todd Liles: There is always a… In the client-creator relationship, there is always that balancing act.

Roy Williams: Oh, yeah.

Todd Liles: Something that also has a similar balancing act is the trap of overtargeting. And for the audience, would you give them your definition of what it means to overtarget?

Roy Williams: Okay. I just had this conversation with Jake, as a matter of fact. Okay? Because we’re getting pushed really hard right now by all these aggregators of connected TV. And so CTV, if you’ve not heard of it, is where you put ads in all the streaming things like Hulu and Disney and all the streaming. It’s not broadcast channels, they’re not cable channels. It’s streaming only. And so that’s very much like pay-per-click. And so the big, big, big push is how much more efficient it is than broadcast TV and all these wonderful things. And so we keep hearing this stuff, and everybody wants to educate us.

And so Jake said, “Okay, I’m gonna get to the bottom of this.” And of all people named Williams that are related to me, including myself, Jake is the one that’s the most methodical, the most diligent, the most patient researcher. He’s the most objective. I mean, that’s his jam. I mean, he can really, really get to the bottom of something. And earlier today, he told me, after this very long, many, many hours of digging into this, he finally got to the bottom of it. And they were maintaining that you can target using CTV, and you could target people who have expressed an interest in what it is you’re selling, and it is so much cheaper than broadcast television. Now, we know that’s not true.

And he goes, “Okay, so how are you calculating that?” And they said, “Well, blah, blah, blah.” And he goes, “Well, hang on. Are you making the assumption because you can target the 5% of the public that’s kind of maybe in the market right now for that, that it’s more efficient because 95% of the people on broadcast television aren’t in the market right now?” They said, “Yes.” He goes, “Well, that assumes that we don’t want to reach those other 95% and convince them to buy from us when their time comes. We’re not just worried about the people who are in the market right now.”

Todd Liles: Right.

Roy Williams: And they finally, after about 30 minutes, finally backed down and, “And yes, we think you’re making a mistake if you reach people that are not in the market right now.” And he goes, “No, our whole business revolves around reaching people that are not yet in the market but will be in the future. And we want to reach them long before they’re actually ready to make their purchase because we want to become the provider of choice. We want to be the preferred provider.” And so all of this sales pitch with all these really, really, really powerful points they were making, he just kept asking questions, kept asking questions, kept asking questions to find out, “How did you calculate that? And what are the assumptions here?” And finally made them admit they had made lots and lots and lots of assumptions…

Todd Liles: Of course they did.

Roy Williams: Based upon, “Of course this would be the right thing to do, correct?” And he goes, “No, we don’t think that’s correct.” And so he was able to demonstrate to them, it’s like… And this is a big deal because we spend, as you know, hundreds of millions of dollars a year buying television, and they’re wanting some of that. And he goes, “No, it’s not even close.” And so he says, “Let’s look at this math together.” And finally, they had to back down and go, “Yeah, you’re right. So for what you’re doing, broadcast television is way more efficient than connected TV.” Ta-da. We already knew that.

Todd Liles: I want to unpack that a little bit too. I want to give the listener a little perspective on this when they’re thinking to themselves, “What did Jake essentially determine?” And what he determined was that it’s the same thing as pay-per-click. The difference is, instead of you Google searching, “I need my air conditioning system repaired,” what these companies are doing is they’re paying attention to the things that you watch and the things that you like, and they’re making assumptions about what they think you need now.

And the reason why I’m bringing this up is I read an article probably a year ago where Vizio, that television company that essentially got started inside of Walmarts, really inexpensive TVs made in high quality, they got this massive, multi, multi, multi, multi-billion dollar offer to buy their physical products, and they said no. And many companies have tried to purchase them, and they keep saying no. And if you go and you get a 75-inch Vizio TV now, you can get that for like six or seven hundred dollars. It’s very inexpensive, and they keep getting less and less expensive.

And when I started reading in the article and digging into what the basis of their business is, the basis of their business is no longer those TVs. Every time you get a new TV, you essentially have to go through a setup period where you are agreeing to let it see your history. And if you say no, well then you just don’t get to watch anything. You bought the TV, but you didn’t buy the right for that TV to actually function as a TV. So almost every modern TV in America today is a data reporting machine. It’s watching everything you watch, whether you’re streaming YouTube, whether you’re streaming the nightly news. It’s taking all of these calculations and it’s feeding it into their algorithms and then it’s turning around and it’s reselling that out. So all of the free shows that don’t come with commercials, they’re using that data to target you with now, which is…

Roy Williams: It gets worse. I didn’t want to go into this, but now that you’ve opened the worm can. Bad actors have now gotten good enough that they can plant malware inside your box so that the TV doesn’t come on while you’re gone, but the box does. And the box is playing ads inside the box. It’s a real homeowner with a real house and a real address, and it’s not bots. It’s actually playing in your box even though your TV’s not on. And so it’s playing infinite numbers of ads. And so, they have the data now. These are real televisions in real homes, and these are the shows they played during. And so they can inflate just by putting a worm into the box that’s in your house that you get your streaming stuff from. And so you can program anything. And so what happens is now it’s not bots. It’s fraudulent, yes, but it is… And what Jake got to the bottom of, and when I said he goes deep, gosh, he goes deep.

Todd Liles: Let me unpack your point here, because some listeners are going, “I don’t understand, Roy.” What Roy essentially is saying is your TV is off, but the part of it that’s recognizing if something’s being played is on, and there are ads being run…

Roy Williams: They can turn it on remote.

Todd Liles: And real companies getting charged for these ads.

Roy Williams: This software will turn on your box. Yeah, it’s a little worm they put in the box. The box manufacturer didn’t do it. The people that downloaded…

Todd Liles: Right. Software does it.

Roy Williams: They basically send an ad. It’s disguised as an ad, but the ad is actually software that programs your little box to come on when you’re not using it. And they sit there and they stream ads to your box, and then those count as real ads that were viewed.

Todd Liles: Someone’s paying for them.

Roy Williams: So somebody’s paying for all of those. And the most important thing is now they have data of how many people they’re reaching with actual televisions. They’re not on video games, and they’re not on tablets in Japan and all these other things. And so that’s old school. Now they’ve gotten more sophisticated. And he said, “Now, here’s the deal…”

Todd Liles: And you know that there are people that are listening to this that think we have gone down some…

Roy Williams: No, no, no, no, no. It’s totally the truth.

Todd Liles: They think we’re crazy.

Roy Williams: I know they do. But because Jake does this so very, very, very well, he said, “You know who’s really, really good at not letting that happen? Disney.” He says, “You really can’t hack the Disney Channel.” He said, “They are so diligent that they have the filters. It won’t let that stuff pass through, and it won’t run on Disney.” He says they can’t get it to run down Disney. You can’t fool Disney. Their tech is too good. And he said… And then he named another couple that are not as good as Disney, but they’re pretty good at fighting back. And then he named all the ones that are just streaming tons of stuff. And he said, “No.” He goes, “If you dig deep enough, you can find out the real data. Because it’s just a matter of time, energy, focus, attention. And you have to make sure that your sources are, in fact, objective and not propaganda.

But what I’m saying, he’s been doing this since he was in college 25 years ago, and he’s been good at it his whole life. And so whenever we want to get to the bottom of something objectively and get the real facts. And so I said, yeah. He said… He did tell me, he says, “I think there’s some potential here, but we’ve got to be super careful and we would only use it in very, very specific situations.” I said, “We’ll talk about that another day, but thanks for the update.” And that was just a few hours ago. And so, yeah, yeah, yeah, I might sound like a nut, but I promise that my younger son does not make silly mistakes.

Todd Liles: Right. So it’s an interesting topic. It’s one that we could probably, as a matter of fact, just so that you know and listener, in future episodes, my intentions are, and I’ve delayed it a couple of times, Roy, because I have five episodes that I want to do that’s all gonna be the deep dive on data and analytics and what’s really going on. And I’ve put that off because I was gonna have a conversation with you, like, who should we get in?

Roy Williams: We bring Jake.

Todd Liles: I think it’s Jake.

Roy Williams: No, it’s absolutely Jake.

Todd Liles: Yeah. So listener, we’re gonna have that show soon and I think it’s gonna be one that’s gonna be wildly popular. If we go back real quick, I have one question about overtargeting.

Roy Williams: Right.

Todd Liles: Overtargeting is in essence, it’s not mass media in the sense of we’re going to reach the masses. It’s more in the sense of, you think that you can say something that is universal. And that’s not the case. You need to speak to someone that you’re thinking about in mind. But people still chase demographics over the message. Why do you think they do that?

Roy Williams: It’s because the myth of what’s called reaching the right people. Todd, I’ve never seen a business fail because they were reaching the wrong people, ever. Businesses don’t fail because they’re reaching the wrong people. Businesses fail because they’re saying the wrong thing, or they’re not delivering what they promise, or they’re just not very good at what they do. And so I’ve never seen a competent business fail because they were reaching the wrong people. And it’s staggering how the wrong people can become the right people when you say the right thing.

You have to speak to the felt need of the customer, not the need you wish they felt, not the need they would feel if they were only more informed. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You gotta talk to them about what they already care about. And when you talk to them about what they already care about, then you win. And when you try to convince them to care about something that they don’t care about, but you think they should, yeah, you’re trying to educate the customer. Congratulations, you lose. How much do you want to lose today, sir?

Todd Liles: Well, the evidence of that has been abundantly clear when the wrong message goes against the wrong brand. And there could be many, many different labels that go against that. But the bottom line, and I think it’s really clear that we see this a lot, is that if you have built a brand, your brand has a certain character that it possesses. It acts a certain way, it makes people feel a certain way, it makes people think a certain way. And I think this connects to that. When you go against that brand, you make people look at your character and go, “Their character’s going nuts. What’s going on with this character I’ve liked and loved for so long?” It’s not even necessarily that it’s wrong, it’s just that you’re not being consistent.

Roy Williams: I’m gonna speak to all of these things. It’s so much more nuanced and complicated. I can’t speak to one piece of it. There is a time and a place for targeting, and I mean tight targeting. Okay? So stay with me. You ready?

Todd Liles: I’m ready.

Roy Williams: Advertising is composed of six big categories. There’s six big categories of advertising. Now, there’s only one of these that I do better than anybody in the world. And I want to make that clear. Not that I’m better than anybody in the world, but there’s only one thing that I do. I don’t want to pretend the other five categories don’t exist.

Todd Liles: Okay.

Roy Williams: Alright, I’m gonna go through the categories real quick. Business-to-business, B2B, that is a type of advertising. Niche marketing with a short purchase cycle is a category of marketing. And I’m gonna give you all the rules for these six categories, by the way.

Todd Liles: Okay.

Roy Williams: Now, niche marketing with a long purchase cycle. I’ll give you examples. That’s a third category. The fourth category is business-to-consumer, B2C, with a short purchase cycle. Then you have B2C with a long purchase cycle. That’s number five. And then you have B2C with a mixed purchase cycle. Now, I’m not saying there’s only six business models in the world. I’m saying there’s only six types of ways to think about advertising.

Now, I’ll go through these as quick as I can, okay? And so B2B, if you’re in a business that sells to other businesses, tight targeting is absolutely essential to your success. But you can easily identify the customers you need to target. Their addresses, phone numbers, email addresses are readily available, and direct mail, phone calls, and emails are cheap. Hey man, if you manufacture cardboard boxes, you know the only people that want to buy cardboard boxes? Companies that ship stuff in cardboard boxes. Those companies are not hard to find. And if you buy mass media to reach companies that ship things in cardboard boxes, you’re an idiot. And I don’t want you as a client. I don’t want to try to target companies that buy cardboard boxes.

Now, if you have some extra dollars and you’re in B2B, you can place ads in the appropriate trade magazines and websites to elevate your brand. By the way, features, benefits, pricing, delivery, and payment terms. Features, benefits, pricing, delivery, payment terms. That is absolutely essential to be in all communications if you’re advertising business-to-business. And so yeah, you need to target like crazy, and you need to talk about features and benefits, prices, delivery schedules, and payment terms.

Now, how well your B2B campaign works will depend entirely on what you say. Focus on saying the right things. You know what the right things are? Features, benefits, pricing, delivery, and payment terms. That’s when one business is selling another business. We don’t do that. I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to even talk about that. So is there a place for targeting? Yeah, if you’re B2B, you better be targeting your ass off. Number two, niche marketing with a short purchase cycle. Now, what’s a niche market? A niche market is basically an affinity group. Guys that drive Corvettes, that’s an affinity group, right? There’s lots of affinity groups. A niche market is any self-selected group of insiders that has chosen to spend time, attention, and money on something that most people don’t care about.

Todd Liles: Right.

Roy Williams: Now, short cycle niche marketing is mostly consumable products and services that are purchased on a regular basis by a self-selected group. Some examples are bullets. Now, guys will go to the shooting range a lot or go out and go hunting all the time or skeet shooting or whatever. You know what they buy a lot of? Bullets and shotgun shells. Now, it’s a niche market. Fishhooks is another niche market. Tubes of oil paint.

Todd Liles: Yeah.

Roy Williams: People that paint oil paint, right? So yeah, tubes of oil paint is a niche market with a short purchase cycle. They need to buy more and more and more and more. They need a constant supply. You know what else is a niche market with a short purchase cycle? Booties. Those little booties that plumbers and electricians wear inside the home. You know who else wears those? Doctors and orderlies in medical facilities. You know who you don’t need advertised booties? In mass media.

Todd Liles: Right.

Roy Williams: It’s a niche market with a short purchase cycle. Now, niche marketing with a short purchase cycle is a whole lot like B2B. It’s features, benefits, and price. Well, we want green ones and you only have pink and blue, so we’re gonna buy from them because they have green ones.

Todd Liles: Right.

Roy Williams: Right? So that’s a feature. Now, let’s look at the third one. Niche marketing with a long purchase cycle. Remember, we’ve already defined what a niche market is, right? It’s something that a self-selected small group of people compared to the population at large. It’s a small subset of the population, but it’s a bigger ticket with a longer purchase cycle. Alright? If you sell a specialty product that appeals to an affinity group, social media is a powerful thing. A powerful thing. Danny sells the most rare, weird, exotic, and inexplicable guns the world has ever known. Firearms collectors are an affinity group. Todd, do you know how many more guns a firearms collector wants? We’re not talking about home protection or self-protection.

Todd Liles: As many as his wife will let him get.

Roy Williams: Yah. He always wants just one more.

Todd Liles: Yeah.

Roy Williams: Just one more. And so collectible firearms, I’m talking about collectibles, are a niche market with a long purchase cycle. Danny wanted me to spend a million dollars in the radio for him, and I was gonna get paid an enormous amount of money to do that. I said, “No.” He came to me, bought a day of my time, I goes, “No. No, horrible idea.” He said, “Why?” I said, “Your company’s two generations old. You have the largest inventory of collectible guns in the world. There’s no gun that’s ever been manufactured in the history of the world that he doesn’t have a few of.” And it’s like literally going to Disney World. It’s a gorgeous place. It’s unbelievable. It’s an adventure. Craziest stuff you’ve ever seen. It’s fun. Even if you don’t like guns, it’s really interesting. And I said, “So, huh, people that collect firearms in your town, trust me, they already know about you.”

Todd Liles: They know you.

Roy Williams: And there’s no way in the world you’re gonna spend a million bucks on mass media and make enough sales to pay that back. I said, “You’re gonna lose money and I don’t wanna be part of that.” He says, “What do I do?” I said, “You’re gonna produce a daily short. Instead of spending a million bucks, you’re gonna spend 150,000. You’re gonna hire a really good shooter, a really good editor. They’re gonna work for you full-time and they’re gonna be in a little room down the hallway from you at your store 40 hours a week.”

Todd Liles: Right.

Roy Williams: And I said, “And then they’re gonna batch shoot 10 or 12 shows. You’re gonna come out there with some of your team. They’re brilliant people, they’re really cool. And you’re gonna get a little gun and you’re gonna tell the story of that gun. You’re not gonna shoot it. You’re just gonna tell the story about it and tell what makes this interesting and weird.” And I said, “Gun collectors, you don’t have to find them. They will find you. YouTube is the second largest search engine on earth.” And I said, “When you’re putting out daily content, a little one or two-minute short, and every day it’s about a different gun and you’re just telling stories about them, you know who’s gonna find those before long.” I said, “Danny, forget the town you’re in. Sell to the nation. Sell to all 50 states.”

And I said, “YouTube is freaking free. Instead of spending a million bucks, spend 150,000 and promise me that you’re gonna go home and you’re gonna produce a new short 365 days a year and it’s gonna be awesome.” He’s gonna do it. And so, you know what? If you have a niche market with a long purchase cycle, you need social media. That’s it. You’re an idiot if you buy mass media to sell a niche market. It just doesn’t work. Now, so we’re talking about all kinds of stuff for short purchase cycle niche market. We’re talking about social media for long purchase cycle niche market. Let’s look at what else. How about if you have a niche product with a long purchase cycle, like you and me? We have an intangible. We both sell business-to-business, but it’s not just business-to-business, it’s a niche within business-to-business.

Todd Liles: Right.

Roy Williams: Are you a sales trainer, an ad writer, a nutritional expert, a motivational speaker, a psychic healer, or an entertainer like Brian Brushwood? Okay. You know what the secret is? Build fame. Ride the tidal wave of fame. Fame leads to word of mouth. Be remarkable. Advertising is a tax you pay for not being remarkable. Be remarkable. And so then we have short purchase cycle business-to-consumer. It’s a small-ticket consumable product or service that a high percentage of the population will purchase regularly.

Now, most short purchase cycle business-to-consumer falls into basically three categories, food, whether it’s a restaurant or a grocery store, gasoline, and entertainment. And those sell to the masses with a short purchase cycle. You eat and buy gasoline and want something fun to do more days than not. Maybe not gasoline, but food and entertainment for sure. And you buy gasoline at least every couple weeks. So grocery stores, restaurants, convenience stores, gas stations, hardware stores, or the everything stores that compete with Amazon and Walmart. All you need is a high-visibility location, legendary signage, and a staff that delivers a positive experience. That’s it. That’s your advertising.

So look at all these different things where I’m going, none of those need mass media. Some of them need tight targeting, some of them need social media. So I know how all these work. I just don’t wanna do any of those. And neither does… Nobody in home services is in any of those categories. And so it’s not like—it’s not like nobody needs targeting. And what the Wizard of Ads do is, as I’m looking through this list, they’re business-to-consumer long cycle with a little bit of short sprinkled in. Only when it’s sales activation.

That’s a mix.

Todd Liles: It’s the mix. That’s the mix cycle.

Roy Williams: Yeah.

Todd Liles: Yeah. So am I right in my assumption?

Roy Williams: 100%.

Todd Liles: Okay. Just want to make sure.

Roy Williams: So there’s long cycle, which is purely relational, and then mixed is relational with sales activation. But sales activation is not transactional ads. A sales activation is not a transactional ad. So you have transactional on this end of the spectrum, and then you have relational on this end of the spectrum.

Todd Liles: Right.

Roy Williams: And what sales activation is, is exactly in the middle. And so a sales activation ad can only exist within a relational ad campaign. So how is it not transactional? There is no phony urgency. It gives you an opportunity. This brand you love, 60% of the ads are relational, 40% are sales activation. And the sales activation says, “Hey, there’s a dozen different triggers for doing sales activation,” one of which is, “This is a good time of year,” or, “This is an event where you might want to consider doing this,” or, “Now would be a really good time for this, and here’s why.”

And so you just… It’s a gentle call to action, but there’s always… It’s timely. And it’s kind of like something’s happening right now you probably need to know about, and you’re not introducing the brand for the first time. You’re just giving them a reason to where now might be a good time to buy this. So 40% of your total ads will be sales activation, but one and a half times that many, 60%, are just relationship building. So sales activation is not a transactional ad, but it’s halfway between a transactional ad and a pure relational ad. Does that make sense?

Todd Liles: It makes total sense. I’ll tell you what I’m thinking about is I’m thinking about our mutual friend Ken Goodrich, and I’m thinking about something that he said to me years ago before I had all of this context of information that you’ve given me. But he did. But it didn’t make sense to me at the time. Makes sense to me now. And then I’m thinking about an interview that he was on with Chris Yano over at Rhino Marketing, and Chris took a segment and they threw it up there. And I go, okay, that’s really neat. So first, the segment in Chris’s podcast. Chris cut away a segment where Roy’s saying, “Hey, 2026 is gonna be hard for a lot of people, and they don’t see it coming.” And he said the people that are gonna really, really be winning are gonna be those that have been focusing on relational marketing for a long time, not the ones that are just doing direct response. And you know what? I’m gonna give Chris Yano a lot of credit for taking that clip and putting it out there, because Chris isn’t really a long-stream marketer.

Roy Williams: No, no, here’s the deal, here’s the deal, here’s the deal. There’s why I like Chris. I always have liked Chris.

Todd Liles: Yeah, I like him, too.

Roy Williams: I met him the day that I met you.

Todd Liles: Right, I remember that.

Roy Williams: Yeah. And so here’s… You just answered a mystery for me. You know what Jake told me when this conversation we just had a couple hours ago?

Todd Liles: What he said?

Roy Williams: He said, “Hey, man,” he said, “something happened because the people that come to wizardofads.com and search for ‘hard times coming,'” he says, “just skyrocketed.” Well, now I know why. I didn’t know Chris did that. And so there’s so many people listening to Chris Yano that when he quoted us, they went to our site and started looking for more information about that. Because Jake was going… I mean, he follows the metrics closely. And he was showing me… It’s actually in the partner training session that comes out on Monday, you’ll see it. But I didn’t know the reason for that until just now.

Todd Liles: Well, when you stay as connected as you and I do, and we talk so much, you can begin to sort of see your influence influencing the influencers. And Ken being one of the greatest ones. So Chris put that out there and it’s like, okay, cool. I’m glad Ken said that. Chris didn’t necessarily give context to us, but if you know Ken, then you know he’s talking about us. Now, I didn’t watch the entire podcast. I just saw the clip. Maybe Ken does bring that up in there. But here’s the other thing that Ken said in the past, and it made me go, that didn’t make sense to me then, but now I get it.

And he was talking about direct response conversion, and he said, “You know, Todd, if someone is getting 25% conversion on direct response,” and I think he might have even said, “That’s sort of what we get on pure direct response,” he goes, “that’s actually really, really good as a closing ratio.” And then the reason why I found that confusing was there were other times where he talked about numbers where I know his numbers are well above 50%. So I got to digging in and started taking a look. And I… Jeffrey actually took a picture of a slide. I had a presentation last week at Winsupply and was looking at the numbers. And what I realized is that in the world of conversions, the highest conversion at plus 75% is one that comes from a technician-generated lead. Someone they really like, they really trust.

At 55% plus is branded. Like, “I’ve been listening to your ads for years and years and years and years, and I’ve already got this great feeling about you.” Now, interestingly enough, lower than that from what I could find is sales activation. Not direct response, but sales activation. That’s at about 45% plus. And when I explained that to the room and I told them, it’s like, sales activation is activation you’re doing with people that are doing business with you, they’re branded, and they look confused. They wanted to know, “Why is that number lower?” And I said, “Well, the answer is they like you. They trust you. You’ve been with them for a long time. You created an offer. They thought the offer was super interesting. They don’t actually need it. But, yeah, come see me. That’s an interesting offer.” You’ll sell about 45 plus percent of those people. And the other 55% aren’t saying, “See you later, alligator. I’m never buying from you again.” They’re going, “See you when I actually need it. Just keep doing my maintenance for now.” So you hadn’t lost them. But then you drop down to direct response. If you can close 25%, you’re killing it. But here’s the problem. You’re losing the other 75.

Roy Williams: Yeah.

Todd Liles: You’re not losing the other…

Roy Williams: Right.

Todd Liles: You may not get them today, you’ll get them eventually, but you’re losing the direct response. And that’s why it’s so costly and so dangerous. It’s very expensive and you’re probably not gonna get a second chance with them.

Roy Williams: No, as a matter of fact, I don’t want to go there because I don’t have the data with me. And it’s not our data, it’s the data from a much, much, much bigger research firm than us. And it puts an even sharper point on what you just said. I’ll make sure I bring it with me next time I’m here.

Todd Liles: Well, let’s do that. Well, Roy, this has been a great episode. I’ve got an ad segment that I want to show you from Harley-Davidson. And the reason why I picked this one is that I think it talks about the niches really well. It’s really speaking at a very clear audience. I actually don’t think it’s a very good ad for me.

Roy Williams: Okay.

Todd Liles: For me, it has no interest. But I’d imagine if you’re a Harley-Davidson rider, you love it. So let’s check it out.

Speaker 4: Sometimes life can be forgettable. The 9-5, the humdrum. Before you know it, you’re stuck in a job that makes you yearn for a fire drill just to see daylight. But average doesn’t have to win. So forget the forgettable. Replace overtime with playtime and put life to the test.

Todd Liles: Now, again, I’m just not into toys. But you were a motorcycle man for a while. I don’t know if it was Harley-Davidson. You had a bike, right?

Roy Williams: For a minute. No, no, no, no. I had a BMW 1000.

Todd Liles: BMW.

Roy Williams: It’s called an R5. But it was a big mistake.

Todd Liles: That’s a story for us.

Roy Williams: It’s a long story.

Todd Liles: But here’s the question that I have for you about that ad. I’m actually gonna come right out and say, like, I saw the ad and I thought, that’s fairly unremarkable. I think I know what they’re saying. They’re saying, “Hey, there’s a lot of people that are in an office that want to ride on the weekend. It’s freedom.” Yeah, yeah. Something about the way it was produced didn’t grab me like other ads did. It felt like the quality was a little lesser.

Roy Williams: The only thing missing was music.

Todd Liles: Maybe it was flat.

Roy Williams: No, what I’m saying is you need ZZ Top playing or something.

Todd Liles: Yeah. That would make it cool.

Roy Williams: What I’m saying is, no, no, no, the only thing missing was music. I’ve never seen the ad. The point is escapism… All right, some people watch movies, some people read books, some people drink heavily, some people have a drug of choice. Some people want to hop on a motorcycle and go zooming down the road and feel like they’re living on the edge. Right? Now, if you work in an office, and so, see, as long as actual bikers were the only people buying Harleys, there’s not enough bikers to keep the company alive. And so Harley started selling for a lot of money and became a really powerful brand when dentists started buying Harleys. And so a dentist would put on a leather jacket and a durag, and on the weekends he’d go out and be a weekend badass. And I’m going, that’s called escapism. And you can do the same thing riding broncs or riding bulls in a rodeo. And I’m saying it doesn’t matter how you dress up or what you want to do that’s gonna put life on the edge, or barefoot skiing at 80 miles an hour. And then they crack the whip and you’re doing 120 miles an hour and you’re leaning down so close to the water that your face is like two inches off the water because you’re leaning out like this. I have friends who do that.

Todd Liles: You know, thanks.

Roy Williams: And you know why I ask? I said, “What is the pleasure of that?” And he said, “Because it is actually the closest that you can come to feeling like you’re about to die. Like, you are literally, your life is in danger without it actually being in danger.” Says, “If you come off that rope, you go tumbling and cartwheeling across that water. It’s gonna hurt like crazy, but you’re not gonna die.” And I said, “I get it.” Okay, a Harley ad is just barefoot skiing at 80 miles an hour. And I’m just going, so everybody has an escape. If you don’t think you have an escape, then you’re lying to yourself. You have one and you just don’t think of it as escaping. So a Harley is an escape mechanism, and it’s one of an infinite number of escape mechanisms. And it’s okay. What I’m saying is, it is a niche market.

Todd Liles: There is a time in all of our lives, whatever age it occurs, for men, I’m convinced it’s much, much later in life, and for women, it’s much earlier, when we wake up and we realize that just because we don’t like it doesn’t mean that there isn’t an audience for it out there somewhere.

Advertising isn’t about reaching everyone, it’s about reaching someone deeply enough that they will tell others. When you try to be everything to everyone, you become invisible. But when you speak clearly and emotionally to your people, you build gravity. And gravity grows brands. Focus beats fear every time. And if you like what you heard today, then subscribe to Todd Liles and The Wizard of Ads and share this episode with a partner or someone on your creative marketing team. And then ask yourself, who are you trying to impress deeply? And what are you willing to say that no one else is willing to say?

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